Letter from Lisboa to Wolfsanger/Hessen-Cassel with Transit TuT and Bavaria - 1854

[pt.philatelia]

Hello,
Good afternoon,

I write in English because my German isn't of any use. I could use Google translate but hope is ok like this.

For the postal historians out there, I have a letter sent from Lisbon, Portugal (13.02.1854) to Wolfsanger/Hessen-Cassel with transit in St. Jean de Luz, Paris and Frankfurt.

First question: Do you know these 2 marks? Do you know where I could find more information about it? Specially the circular mark and where was applied?

Second Question: At the time, was Frankfurt part of Thurn and Taxis?

Third question: At the time, Hessen-Cassel was part of Grand Duchy of Hesse, right? If yes did it had any postal convention with Thurn and Taxis?

Danke!

[Rainer Fuchs]

Hi,

welcome on board;

we have a member here @Setubal, who specialises on Portugal. You may find him through the forum search but he also ready this forum so for sure he will reply in timely manner.

[Setubal]

Hallo Rainer Fuchs
Dear pt.philatelia,

Bei den von pt.philatelia gestellten Fragen bin ich wohl nicht der richtige Ansprechpartner.
Frage 1. Die Zugehörigkeit der nachgefragten Stempel müßte jemand beantworten, der sich mit der Transitpost aus Frankreich in die altdeutschen Staaten auskennt.
Frage 2. und Frage 3. Auch hier wäre die Hilfe eines Thurn + Taxis Sammlers gefragt.

Rolf- Dieter Wruck

[Altsax]

Hello,
Good afternoon,

I write in English because my German isn't of any use. I could use Google translate but hope is ok like this.

For the postal historians out there, I have a letter sent from Lisbon, Portugal (13.02.1854) to Wolfsanger/Hessen-Cassel with transit in St. Jean de Luz, Paris and Frankfurt.

First question: Do you know these 2 marks? Do you know where I could find more information about it? Specially the circular mark and where was applied?

Second Question: At the time, was Frankfurt part of Thurn and Taxis?

Third question: At the time, Hessen-Cassel was part of Grand Duchy of Hesse, right? If yes did it had any postal convention with Thurn and Taxis?

Danke!

ad 1: arrivel Postmark from Cassel, A.U.UEB. FRANKREICH, used in Frankfurt from ca. 1851 - ?
ad 2: Yes, it was a "Freie Reichsstadt" and part of the postal district of Thurn and Taxis.
ad 3: Hessen-Cassel was an "Kurfürstentum" for its own. "Gran Duchy of Hesse" means the "Großherzogtum Hessen-Darmstadt". It belonged to the postal district of Thurn and Taxis.

[pt.philatelia]

ad 1: arrivel Postmark from Cassel, A.U.UEB. FRANKREICH, used in Frankfurt from ca. 1851 - ?
ad 2: Yes, it was a "Freie Reichsstadt" and part of the postal district of Thurn and Taxis.
ad 3: Hessen-Cassel was an "Kurfürstentum" for its own. "Gran Duchy of Hesse" means the "Großherzogtum Hessen-Darmstadt". It belonged to the postal district of Thurn and Taxis.

Thank you!.
Attached a picture of the cover. There is a remnant of a circular mark that ends in "EL" .. I thought that was the arrival mark and the D.2 was a transit mark somewhere, perhaps in Strasbourg but seems I am wrong.

I believe the 9 in orange-red is 9 Krz that Bavarian posts charged for transit according to the convention between France and Bavaria of 1847.
Do you know anything about the 5 2/3 ?

https://imgur.com/zUqgw6n

Danke!

[Altsax]

I believe the 9 in orange-red is 9 Krz that Bavarian posts charged for transit according to the convention between France and Bavaria of 1847.
Do you know anything about the 5 2/3 ?

This letter had not been forwarded via Bavaria. Relevant was the convention between France and Taxis from 1851. France received 2 1/2 Sgr. for transit from the spanish border to the border of DÖPV, Taxis got 3 Sgr. from there to Cassel. From Cassel to Wolfsanger the letter was transported by rural mail. They charged 1/2 Sgr.

[pt.philatelia]

This letter had not been forwarded via Bavaria. Relevant was the convention between France and Taxis from 1851. France received 2 1/2 Sgr. for transit from the spanish border to the border of DÖPV, Taxis got 3 Sgr. from there to Cassel. From Cassel to Wolfsanger the letter was transported by rural mail. They charged 1/2 Sgr.

Ok, could you please point me to that convention from 1851?
I know there is the convention of 11.9.1844, the additional of 4.4.1846 and supplement articles of 22.11.1847.

That sum 2½ + 3 is the 5 / 2 ?
and from where does the 9 Krz comes from? Not from Bavaria? and isn't the 9 Krz translated to 3 Sgr in bottom of 5 2 /3 ?

[Altsax]

Ok, could you please point me to that convention from 1851?
I know there is the convention of 11.9.1844, the additional of 4.4.1846 and supplement articles of 22.11.1847.

That sum 2½ + 3 is the 5 / 2 ?
and from where does the 9 Krz comes from? Not from Bavaria? and isn't the 9 Krz translated to 3 Sgr in bottom of 5 2 /3 ?

I don´t know the original convention from 1851. I got the post-fee from the "Postverordnungsblatt" of saxony from April 1851. It is relevant for transport from Portugal to Saxony via Spain, France and Frankfurt. Maybe, the convention Taxis-France is older.

The "5 1/2" above the fraction stroke correspondences with the "3 + 2 1/2" (Sgr.) and under the fraction stroke the "1/2" (Sgr.) ist for the rural mail.

The "9" not neccesarily means "Kr". The transport from the french border to Frankfurt was via Baden, not via bavaria and as closed mail.

[pt.philatelia]

The "5 1/2" above the fraction stroke correspondences with the "3 + 2 1/2" (Sgr.) and under the fraction stroke the "1/2" (Sgr.) ist for the rural mail.

Do you think the number below the fraction stroke in the front is a ½ and not a 3 ?

The "9" not neccesarily means "Kr". The transport from the french border to Frankfurt was via Baden, not via bavaria and as closed mail.

If is not 9 Krz then I don't know what could it be.
The 9 matches the convention between France and Bavaria, art 14.from 15.5.1847 ...

Thank you very much for your help Alto sax!

[Altsax]

Anhang zu Postverordnung 800 v. 28.4.1851

The 2 1/2 Ngr. (Sgr.) are for France
Taxis added 3 Sgr.

There was no postal convention between Saxony and France.

Saxony used as a member of DÖPV the convention Taxis-France

[pt.philatelia]

Hallo Alto Sax,
Guten Morgen!

Which exchange offices do you think were involved in exchanging the closed bags between France and Saxony?
What currency do you think the "9" is?

PS: “EL” in the back could also be related to “BLIESKASTEL” which was one of the exchange post offices between France and Bavaria

Danke!

[Altsax]

Which exchange offices do you think were involved in exchanging the closed bags between France and Saxony?

I think, the closed bags crossed the border at Straßbourg - Kehl and were transported by the Badische Bahnpost. The bags were opened at Frankfurt. Therefore the Taxis Post got the 9 Kr. resp. 3 Sgr. DÖPV fee and had to pay the 2 1/2 Sgr. for transit through France.

What currency do you think the "9" is?

It could be 9 Kr., France had to get from Taxis, but 9 Kr. is more than 2 1/2 Sgr. Maybe the convention France-Taxis says 9 Kr.

The DÖPV porto Frankfurt - Cassel is 9 Kr. or 3 Sgr. 9 Kr is less than 3 Sgr .

Perhaps the calculation is: 9 Kr for France + 9 Kr. for Frankfurt (Taxis) = 18 Kr. 18 Kr. are exactly 5 2/10 Sgr. The addressee paid 5 1//2 Sgr. - ok

[pt.philatelia]

I think, the closed bags crossed the border at Straßbourg - Kehl and were transported by the Badische Bahnpost. The bags were opened at Frankfurt. Therefore the Taxis Post got the 9 Kr. resp. 3 Sgr. DÖPV fee and had to pay the 2 1/2 Sgr. for transit through France.



It could be 9 Kr., France had to get from Taxis, but 9 Kr. is more than 2 1/2 Sgr. Maybe the convention France-Taxis says 9 Kr.

The DÖPV porto Frankfurt - Cassel is 9 Kr. or 3 Sgr. 9 Kr is less than 3 Sgr .

Perhaps the calculation is: 9 Kr for France + 9 Kr. for Frankfurt (Taxis) = 18 Kr. 18 Kr. are exactly 5 2/10 Sgr. The addressee paid 5 1//2 Sgr. - ok

Attached the art.40 regarding the additional articles from France and TuT postal convention. 1,20Fr for 30g ...

[pt.philatelia]

Hello, good evening Altsax, forum members,

Some time as passed but here are some new comments ....

Regarding the Sachsen rates. The information you shared is good but I have a comment: The rate for a letter from Portugal to Sachsen via Frankfurt was 2½ Ngr (1) and not 3½ Ngr. 3½ Ngr was via Baden (2) but this letter contains the A.U. ueb Frankreich mark which is indicative of passing by Frankfurt.

Regarding the letter to Cassel, this is what I believe it happen:

9Kr for a letter up to ½ Loth (3)
9Kr converted into 3 Sgr by TuT
2½ Sgr added by TuT for a letter received from Portugal via France. (4)
3 + 2½ = 5½

Then the ½ Sgr added which you mentioned was rural rate but I could not find information about it.

This is what I currently have. I explored your option of going from Strasbourg to Frankfurt via Baden but seems unlikely. However I still could not find information from the TuT source documents. To be honest I could not find any TuT official source documents yet.
Regarding the references I could only find from French and Bayern side . TuT postal documentation seems hard to find but the quest continues.

Any comments are welcome. Thank you!

References:

(1) Den Anschluss der Fürstlich Thurn und Taxisschen Bestverivaltung an den Deutch-Österreichischen Postverein betressend von 28 April 1851
(2) Der Beitritt des Großherzogtums Baden zum Deutch-Österreichischen Postverein von 24 April 1851

(3) Postal convention between France and Bavaria 15.05.1847.
Art 14:
(..) - Lettre simple de demi-loth (..)
Il est entendu que dans la taxe uniforme de neuf kreutzer par lettre simple, applicable aux lettres affranchies originaires du royane de Bavière, le Palatinat du Rhin excepté, se trouvent compris, savour;
- Le port territorial bavarois
- Les droits ou ports de transit à rembourser, par l’administration des postes bavaroises, aux administrations des postes étrangères mentionnées dans l’article 4 de la présent Convention.
Les mêmes taxes respectives de neuf kreuzer et de trois kreutzer seront appliquées aux lettres non affranchies originaires de la France, de l’Algérie et des parages de la Méditerranée où la France possédé des établissements de poste, et à celles, aussi non affranchies, provenant des pays étrangers qui empruntent l’intermédiaire des postes de France; le tout sans préjudice du recouvrement de la taxe territoriale française, et des différentes taxes de transit dont ces lettres pourront être frappées.

(4) Additional articles to the postal convention between France and TuT of 11.09.1844
$1 – Transit à découvert / Art 40 – L ’Administration des postes de la Tour et Taxis payer également à l ’administration des postes de France la somme d’un franc vingt centimes par trente grammes, poids net, pour prix du transit sur le territoire français des lettres originaires de l’Espagne, du Portugal et de Gibraltar, destinées pour les États d’Allemagne et les États du Nord mentionnées dans l’article précédent.

[pt.philatelia]

Good morning,
Regarding Sachsen, here is a letter from Paris to Gera via Frankfurt. It also contains the 9 / 3. Which I think is the same case as for the letter to Cassel. 9Kr to Bavaria, converted into 3Sgr by TuT and then 2½ Ngr added to deliver to Gera.





And regarding Cassel, here a letter from France (Rixheim) to Cassel via Frankfurt but this one with more detail on the accounting steps.